In this liberating episode, Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey, Owner of Nell3D, shares why stopping is not the same as quitting and how strategic subtraction creates more impact and fulfillment. If you feel stuck doing more and more yet still dissatisfied or exhausted, you won’t want to miss it.
You will discover:
– What happens when you create space instead of always adding more
– Why stopping is different from quitting and essential for high performers
– How to use the Stop-Drop-Roll process to subtract strategically
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello, and welcome, welcome once again to the Start, Scale, and Succeed podcast-the only podcast that grows with you through all seven levels of your journey as a founder. I’m your host Scott Ritzheimer, and this episode is going to be for everyone. Not a lot of episodes are, and it’s not even just for founders because we all go through level one. We all have that time when we’re that dissatisfied leader, frustrated with the world. And even if you’ve you’re not there, even if you’ve started your own, even if you’re well into this journey, one of the things that I found is that each of these levels builds on the previous one. And so, regardless of what level you’re in now, there are a few key lessons from level one that we do not want to leave behind, and I really believe that this is one of them.
And to sum it up, the the thing that I would say is that stopping isn’t quitting. Now I have no idea what that means, not really, but I have someone who does, and I’m very excited to explore this because here to explain the difference between stopping and quitting is Nell 3D. Nell is a subtraction activist, a Forbes leadership contributor, and creator of the the Lead in 3D framework. She helps ambitious, big-hearted leaders build success that feels as good as it looks, so they can have the impact they care most about. Her systematic subtraction method has served leaders at companies from Google to Bank of America and the National Park Service, and I’m so glad that she is here with us today. Now, I think this is as I was kind of getting ready for this. I think one of the more radical things that I’ve heard you say is that for especially for those high achievers, one of the best things that they can do is stop, which isn’t necessarily to quit, and and that’s kind of a strange message for someone, especially who’s like totally dissatisfied in their job, who’s ready to quit, or or those high performers out there who like they get done more than just about anyone else in the world, but somehow it just doesn’t feel like it’s enough. What would you say to someone like that listening today?
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. Scott, such a good intro, and I totally agree with you. Maybe I’m a little biased, but I totally agree that this is like a level one for life survival skill, much less thriving skill, and if you haven’t picked it up, you got to pick up the stitch and move forward. So I am totally on board and flattered that you see that as well. So what I would say to that person is that there’s a few pieces to it, and so one, let’s talk about that. Stopping is not quitting is a title of a piece that I wrote a while ago, and it is absolutely fundamental to my method of systematic subtraction. And the the point is that in my life, and the people I work with, and every entrepreneur I’ve ever met, aspirational or current or past, and so your entire audience, it is not about a job.
It’s about a mission, and that is not necessarily like ending cancer or you know teaching children in poor rural areas to read even though they’re blind or you know all of these things that may be very worthy missions for one person or for 100 people or for 1000s, but not for all of us, right? It might be a more efficient way to get your house painted, or you know, a quicker, safer way to learn a language, or you know, I don’t know, whatever the things are that people are doing in their companies. It’s a passion. It’s a purpose, and so this is not about quitting that purpose, right? I’ve been at this since I was 12. I had a super clear sense of purpose at 12 years old for a story that is out there. If people want to find it, they can. And so since then, I’ve been pivoting and learning and reframing and starting projects and ending projects and starting new ones to go better, faster, more effectively, more balancedly toward that same purpose, and that has required stopping a lot of things that maybe once served that purpose or mission but don’t anymore, or maybe were an experiment and I thought they were going to get me there very earnestly, and it was a reasonable thing to think. But they didn’t and don’t, and so I stopped them. Right. So that’s kind of the high level. Is that helpful? Because I have one more theoretical, but I want to start there and make sure that that lands.
Scott Ritzheimer
It is. I want to follow up on that because, especially as it comes to this feeling of success, why do we feel so much more successful when we start things than when we stop them.
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
Yeah, yeah. So that’s neurological largely, and it’s about dopamine, which, by the way, that that’s the chemical that triggers with something new, with you know a red alert saying that someone liked your post with. $20 landing your account with $20,000 landing in your account, right? At every level, that’s a dopamine flash. Turns out, it’s a different chemical from liking something or being rewarded by something, which is about kind of serotonin, that like love, or even oxytocin, that connection side of the chemical equation in our brains, and so the more, more, more rapid fire dopamine is very addictive. And actually, through kind of nerdy behavioral science stuff, we get addicted to the event pattern, not even just the chemical. So it’s very insidious. And I like to remind people, the best engineers in the world, the best behavioral scientists in the world, trillions of dollars of advertising are out there blasting you with that dopamine. So it’s not like weak or silly or immature or shameful to be so addicted to that, right? It’s it’s literally our brains backed up by some serious capitalist economics.
Scott Ritzheimer
Wow, wow! So, give us just so that we’re all using the same terminology here. Help to distinguish for us the difference between stopping and quitting. So, what would you say is stopping, and what would you say is quitting?
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
So, that’s a great question. I don’t know that I’ve ever fleshed it out, so stay tuned for a post on this coming soon, inspired by that question. I would say you know stopping is an experiment. I’m very clear, you know it’s it’s it’s data collection. It’s what we have to do before the drop, the the climax of subtraction, which we’ll get to in a minute. But it’s it’s pausing. It’s gathering data. It’s getting quiet so you can come inside and listen, but there’s nothing permanent about it, right? We don’t stay in that stop. It’s a step in the three steps of stop, drop, and roll. It’s it’s a moment. It’s a second, maybe maybe it’s a day, maybe it’s a week of reflection, right? We all need different versions and different quantities of that stop in our lives as we move through. Quitting is, I’m done. Right, it’s over.
I’m not going back. If I quit smoking, hopefully, although we know numbers show a different tale, I’m I’m never going back to that. Is the intent to say I’m quitting, and I think. There’s. I’m trying to figure out if this is true or not. We’ll we’ll revise it for the article. But for now, what I want to say is, it’s also. I’ll leave it. It’s just so permanent, you know, and so there’s a sense of inflexibility. There is what I want to get at, and in this world, if you haven’t noticed, things are changing really fast. And what has always been true is that we, as living beings and living systems, are changing and evolving over the course of our lives. Hopefully, right? Certainly, I know your listeners are not static. They do not hope to be the same in six months or six years that they are today. And so, when we quit things, I think it’s very actually limiting because of that kind of sense of permanence. Whereas stop recognizes the reality that things are going to change, and so we’re just pausing to gather that data, not like harsh, firm boundary ruling a thing out forevermore.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, I love that because of the kind of curiosity that that invokes. I think that’s such a it’s such an easy thing to miss, and I understand, especially where we conflate stopping and quitting, where we won’t want to stop because we’re afraid of quitting, right? Like, and and even if you separate those, there’s still this fear that comes alongside stopping. I don’t know if it’s fear of being left behind or fear of being found out, but why, why, like that moment right before you stop, where you almost have the courage to do it? What, where does that fear come from? Why, for high performers that are so driven, there’s that dark side of it that won’t let them slow down. Sometimes, what is that?
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
Yeah, yeah. So again, there’s neuroscience to it, which is loss aversion, right? And so we are more scared to lose things that we have, no matter the value they actually have to us anymore. So see again that distinction between dopamine and serotonin, oxytocin, and then there’s a kind of behavioral, cultural part of it, right? Which is that no one is recognized for the absence of an action, especially if it is something that we used to do and now it goes away. Like no one’s like, I got promoted because I stopped doing that monthly report. Go me, right? We’re promoted because we got a new client, because we started a new data dashboard, because we. Added a language to our website, right? Like the additions are what get rewarded, and so it’s one thing to not do something that already can feel a little scary, like I should be or that person is or whatever, but to stop doing something we have been doing is really scary. Again, not irrational in a job market or an economy like we’re dealing with.
Whether this is people who are still in deciding to stop to quit a job or to stop part of it to make room for entrepreneurship, or an entrepreneur thinking in that way, and the final theory that I do want to drop in here is from economics rather than psychology, which is the law of diminishing returns, and so the idea here very quickly, people might remember from like a high school economics class that if a farmer wants to produce more apples, let’s say they farm apples and they want to farm more, they might say, okay, I’m gonna. There’s a new field across the street that’s coming on lease. I’ll lease that new field. Okay, if the farmer doesn’t also get more apple trees and hire more people to pick the apples, that farmer is actually not going to end up with more apples. I think we can all see that. And so the idea here is similar: that if we just do more and more and more at our job or in sales, it eventually gets less effective, right? That land is wasted money for that farmer unless they kind of round out their investment of activities and do all of the things it takes. And so it’s very easy in this world because of the factors I’ve talked about, kind of societally, externally in our economy, and neurologically, and then culturally in our companies, to just always do more. And sadly, it stops getting as effective. And sadly, the only thing we know or thing to do is to keep doing still more. And so now we’re not having more impact, and we’re really exhausted.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. So by this point in the conversation, we’ve kind of we’ve talked about stopping, which is probably still terrifying. You know, I don’t like it any more than anybody else, but but but again, it’s the permanence here that I think is such a big point. Yeah, and and so we don’t stop to stop; we stop to what? What’s the what’s the role and goal of stopping, and what comes next.
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
Yeah, so I hope that I actually by the end of this quick episode, and maybe people will re-listen, or maybe they’ll listen to my TED talk, which we’ll share that just dropped, is that that stopping will become less terrifying. Sorry, these AirPods, like I don’t know if it’s small ears or big ears or what the problem is, but they don’t fit well. Anyhow, we stop as the first step of basically a scientific method that we’re going to run for really optimizing our impact in the world alongside our well-being, alongside our joy and our relationships. So it’s this multi-dimensional, 3d, if you will, approach to true success that’s actually fulfilling, and so stop as you mentioned is the first step, which really is about curiosity, right? It’s getting data to tee up this experiment, and so once we stop, then we get to drop, and this is, I think, what makes it less terrifying: is that if you realize a few things people realize they can’t do anymore.
Right, this is not working. Whether that’s in the company, whether that’s in their own company, whether that’s post exit, something is not working. Health breaks down, mood is breaking down, and I’m cranky and annoying to the people I love most. Something is not working, and so let’s get curious and run an experiment. And so, what’s scary is your health really tanking. What’s scary is not being able to deliver on a customer promise or getting fired because you’re doing such a bad job. Stopping to look around and gather some data to make a good strategic experiment of which thing to let go of, I would suggest that that’s a calculated risk, which we know entrepreneurs are very good at. Right? Science shows over and over. Entrepreneurs are not massive risk takers; they’re very strategic, calculated risk takers. And so your audience should be receptive to this. We’ve stopped, gathered some data, and now we have an informed experiment of what to drop something in your life that doesn’t deserve the energy you’re giving it that you are going to try letting go of for some period of time-a week, a month, a year, the foreseeable future. If you feel that confident about it, 10 minutes if it feels really scary, right? But that is kind of the actual subtraction. Is this step to the drop?
Scott Ritzheimer
So good, it’s so good. And then, for the sake of time, the the last element of this process is what.
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
The role, and this is like the juice. Like this is where I see people get over all that fear and be like, “Oh my God, this abstraction stuff is magic, and how I want to live my life. And I don’t know it. It’s not natural. I’m still going to work. It’s still a daily practice because new stuff is always coming in. So we’re always going to have to keep subtracting. You’re you’re never going to get to like peak subtraction maxing or something. That’s not the thing. It is a continual lens. Roll is where we notice the ripples of the drop. We notice what we now have time and energy for, and that might be simply white space, so that we’re not racing late, driving dangerously to our next appointment, or snapping at our sweet, sweet five-year-old in the back seat who’s just asking a curious question, but interrupting our podcast and feels really annoying and maybe worth a snap, right? So slowly as we let go of things and either leave white space in which we can daydream, in which we can rest, in which our brains can kind of process what we’ve been learning, or in which we can do a higher value activity, we intentionally watch the ripples for ourselves. Our work gets better. Our work gets sharper.
We get more creative. We’re more patient with those people we love. We’re less resentful of those people we love, and that is the reward. That becomes a form of dopamine of this ding ripple when we do something good, or the second order roll when we see someone else do something good. We see a direct report or a contractor say, “I’ve been doing this report every week. I’m realizing that it’s an exact duplicate of the AI notes from our Zoom meetings, and I’m thinking that instead I could go through the AI notes and schedule the follow-ups in our calendar, and that that would be a better use of my time. And you, the entrepreneur, think, Hallelujah! This human who’s taking my $28 an hour as a contractor just leveled up and freed up time and freed up money. What a great ripple of my subtraction setting this model, yeah. So these are the roles. This is where the magic of subtraction happens that actually allows us to do less and have more impact, which is ultimately my promise with this.
Scott Ritzheimer
Brilliant, brilliant. I love it and could talk about it for a very long time. But there is a question that I want to ask you, and that is one that asks all my guests. It’s this: What is the biggest secret that you wish wasn’t a secret at all? What’s that one thing you wish every founder, pre-founder, employee, or anyone listening today knew?
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
Doing more is actually dangerous, and even doing more of good things, even more meditation, even more customer discovery, even more cold plunging. This can all actually be physically dangerous. I’ve got the receipts on that. I know it might sound like hyperbole, but I’m just gonna dangle that as a teaser and invite you over to my TED talk, where you can hear the very real story of actual physical danger to myself and other people. And readers may or listeners may have their own versions that they can already see and hear because it’s a human experience. But I had a big one. I share it very willingly because I want people to learn that secret.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, well, for anyone watching or listening, they’re going to want to get a hold of that. So we’ve got the TED Talk. We’ll put that in the show notes for everybody. If someone’s there and they’re saying, “Hey, I’d love to have you come walk alongside me or help out more, or just they want to learn more about what it is that you do. Where can they find you? Where can they find out more about your work?
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
Subtract to succeed is my subtraction lab on Substack. It’s a lot of subs, and you can subscribe. But I’m going to send you a free guest pass for 90 days so that you have full access. There’s a 12 video short mini course. There’s two different 100 day practices that you can play with, as well as regular writing. I write an essay each Monday, kind of playing with this idea of subtraction, and do an interview most Wednesdays, or record something myself to give you a real time live interactive version of that. So come hang out at Subtract to Succeed, and that guest pass is in the listener notes here for you to take advantage of.
Scott Ritzheimer
Excellent, excellent. Well, now thank you so much for being here. What a fun, fascinating conversation! Cannot wait to to explore it further. So yeah, thank you. Really appreciate your time. And for those of you watching and listening, you know your time and attention mean the. To us, I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
Cheers, Scott. Thanks.
Scott Ritzheimer
Hey, everyone. Scott Ritzheimer here. Thank you so much for listening to the Start Scale and Succeed podcast. I hope this episode gave you exactly what you need for the level you’re in right now. If you want to discover what level you’re in, take our 10-question Founders Evolution Quiz for free at foundersquiz.com. That’s foundersquiz.com. It’ll pinpoint exactly where you are and give you tailored tips to move forward and reach that next level in your journey as a founder. If you got something out of today’s episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, or review. It helps us reach more founders like you, and let’s be honest, it means a ton to me, my team, and all our incredible guests. So keep starting, scaling, and succeeding, and I’ll see you in the next episode.
Contact Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey
Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (aka Nell 3D) is a Subtraction Activist, Forbes Leadership contributor, and creator of the Lead in 3D framework. She helps ambitious, big-hearted leaders build success that feels as good as it looks, so they can have the impact they care most about. Her Systematic Subtraction method has served leaders at companies from Google to Bank of America and the National Park Service.
Want to learn more about Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey’s work at Nell3D? Check out her website at https://www.nell3d.com/
Connect with Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey through her LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/nell3d/
Watch Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey’s Tedx Subtract to Succeed: The Case for Doing Less at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzRp2sQQNGc
Get guest pass for FULL access to Subtract to Succeed at https://nell3d.substack.com/subscribe?coupon=376f87b3