In this clarifying episode, Scott Ritzheimer, Founder of Scale Architects, shares why adding systems and processes too early is one of the fastest ways to force yourself into whitewater. If you’ve invested in structure yet still feel stuck, slowed down, or drowning in complexity at a relatively small size, you won’t want to miss it.
You will discover:
– What to do: increase quality operators and filter every system through what helps them succeed
– Why heavy systems and processes in the Fun stage slow operators and create artificial complexity
– How to diagnose whether you are overprocessed instead of legitimately over-operated.
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello, and welcome, welcome once again to the Start Scale and Succeed podcast, the only podcast that grows with you through all seven levels of your journey as a founder. We are now in part three of our “You’re Not in Whitewater dot dot dot yet” series, where we’re not talking about the levels of the founder’s evolution, but instead we’re talking about the stages that organizations go through together, and one of those really important stages-one that I spend a lot of time working with my clients in-is the whitewater stage. And a big part of the reason why you might have heard about me or started following this probably had to do with whitewater.
You heard me talking about it somewhere. You heard one of our scale architects talk about it somewhere, or you heard Les talk about it. The guy who created the model, the predictable success model. And what we’re exploring here in this series is the growing phenomena. I guess you could call it pattern, maybe more appropriate, where I’m seeing more and more and more organizations end up in whitewater prematurely by their own doing, not for the right reasons than ever before, and I think it’s a trend that’s going to continue. I think it’s actually going to accelerate because when you look at it, there’s actually three times as many ways, or at least you know three times as many groups of ways. There’s an infinite number of ways, but there are three times as many ways to end up in whitewater for the wrong reason as there is to end up in whitewater for the right reason. So in episode one, if you haven’t seen that in this little mini series, I’d encourage you to go back to it because I lay some of the foundation. We talk about what the different stages are, just in case you’re new to the the predictable success life cycle.
We talk about the different leadership styles, which is a really really important part of how organizations end up in whitewater by mistake. We talk about why it matters, like what’s the problem with getting into whitewater too early, and we actually built on that a little more in episode two. So, if you want to know more about why getting into whitewater early is a bad thing, check out the second episode in this little series. In this third series, we’re going to talk about the second reason why organizations end up in whitewater prematurely. Now, again, the first reason, which we talked about in the previous episode, is that they are overvisioned, and the only right reason is that they are overoperated. So the goal then is to make sure that your organization only ever gets to Whitewater by having too much operator to sustain that success. If you’re overvision, or if you’re wondering what overvision is, or you think you might be overvisioned, check out the previous episode. In this one, we’re going to talk about one of you know maybe the most confusing reasons, and that is that you can end up in whitewater because you are overprocessed.
Now, again, if you’ve been following along in a couple of these episodes, you might think that’s insane because, again, if you’re familiar with the model at all, you know that what do you have to do when you’re in whitewater? You have to add systems and processes. The reason why you’re in whitewater is because you don’t have enough system and process, and there’s too much complexity, and you need system and process to overcome that complexity. Then why in the world would adding system and process put you into whitewater? And if you’re in whitewater because you have too much system and complexity, you have too much system and process. Then, how in the world do you get out? Because the only way out, Scott, is to to add system and process. If we have too much, how can we add more and think that it’s going to change anything? It won’t. It won’t. And that’s the point. That’s the that’s the whole problem with ending up here. Now, how does this happen? Let’s unwind this a little bit because it’s really important to understand how we get here. Because this is again, I think the it could very well become the the most common reason why organizations struggle with whitewater when they shouldn’t.
Scott Ritzheimer
I think it’s going to pass being overvisioned if it hasn’t already. And here’s what the problem is, and it’s twofold. One, people who’ve been through whitewater, or people who help people through whitewater, folks who understand the whitewater stage, and have learned the lessons of needing more system and process, when they are asked, “Hey, what do I do to grow? How do I scale? They, because Whitewater is so painful, one of the very first things they’re going to say is, “You need to have systems and processes to scale, and that is accurate for somebody who’s legitimately in Whitewater who has over-operated. And can no longer sustain fun. The path forward for them is absolutely to add system and process. Now it’s a very specific set of systems and processes. It’s not just system and process galore, and it’s and it’s to use those systems and processes in a very specific way, not just to throw them haphazardly at everything, or ask ChatGPT to make you a handbook.
That’s not going to do anything. Instead, you have to have the right systems. You have to embrace those systems, and you have to you have to build them into the way that you lead. It has to change the way that you lead. Now, how do we end up here prematurely? Well, those folks who recognize, hey, I’ve been through whitewater. I know what that’s like. I know how we got out. It was by adding systems and processes. They tell other people you need systems and processes, but everyone fails to recognize that there’s a timing to this, that there’s a sequence to it. That when you’re a young organization in early struggle, systems and processes aren’t going to do anything if you don’t even know what you’re having to systematize or process in the first place. If you’re creating a new product and you don’t even know what it is yet, you can’t build a system for delivering it. Right now, that’s a little extreme, but it’s kind of the same thing all across the board in early struggle, and so what I’m getting is there’s a right time and place for system and process, and the right time for for system wide, enterprise wide system and process for a systematic way of leading the organization.
The time for that is when you get into whitewater again because you’ve overoperated, but that also means that that time is not before that, because here’s the problem: operators, the folks that you want to drive you toward Whitewater, if we could say it that way. Let me say it a better way: operators, the ones who are going to make the most fun in fun, the ones who are going to let you get the biggest in fun. The ones who will need the least management from you in fun. The ones who can create the most success in fun. Those folks, they don’t like systems and processes. Not overly cumbersome ones. They will deal with as little system and process is as needed, and probably not a whole lot more, because one of the things you need to know about operators is that the motto of a great operator is “Tell me what to do and don’t watch. You can tell me what to do, but I don’t want you hovering over my shoulder telling me how to do it. That’s the way that operators work. Well, what happens when we hear, oh, you need systems and processes to scale. And instead of letting our operators have room to breathe and do their thing and grow the organization their way, we go in and we start imposing systems and processes on them. What do you think a great operator is going to do in that circumstance? They’re gone, right? They’re gonna. They’re either going to ignore the system and process, and if you’re wise enough, you’ll actually let them because you’re the one who’s wrong, or they will leave and find somewhere else where they can work without having someone over their shoulder 24/7. Because operators hate being micromanaged, and the amount of system and process you need to get out of Whitewater will leave a lot of operators, not all of them, but a lot of them, feeling micromanaged.
Scott Ritzheimer
So operators are this like critical gift for the fun stage, and we want to set up our system in the fun stage for operators so that we can get as big as possible, as simple as possible. And when we add system and process. We actually artificially add complexity because it’s actually more complicated to do the thing and write it down and follow the checklist and report to five different people than it is to do the thing, right? Like that. That’s that’s indisputable. And so when we add system and process, here’s what’s here’s what happens. The the best way I can describe what being over processed is and why it pushes you to whitewater prematurely is it’s kind of like if you took I I drive a little pickup truck and if you take even that little pickup truck and you take its brakes right you take its brakes off that’s the dangerous vehicle. That that’s not a pleasant thing to drive because the moment you’ve got to stop at an intersection, you’re in an accident. So those brakes are a good thing.
Agreed, right? It’s pretty straightforward. Well, what happens when I put those brakes on my mountain bike? I mean, that that’s a good like if it can stop my truck, it can stop my bike, right? I mean, like they’re gonna be plenty strong enough. If I’m gonna, you know, pedal faster and go faster, eventually I’m gonna need that, right? I know it’s ridiculous, but but this is that’s the point. This is ridiculous. What happens if you put the the braking system from my truck onto my mountain bike? First thing that’s going to happen is when I’m trying to pedal, they’re going to get in the way and they’re going to slow me down. That’s what systems and processes do to your operators. They just get in their way and slow them down. And then what happens? Heaven forbid, where I ever touch the brake lever and activate that braking system, it’s way too much for the bike. And so the moment I do, boom, straight over the handlebars, right? Not even a glimmer of hope of avoiding it.
That would be insane. No one would do that. At least I hope no one would do that. But that’s exactly what we do. We think I got to pedal faster, so I need to get the brakes from something that’s faster, and I need to put them on my vehicle. Another braking analogy, and this one might help as well. Fun is a little bit like NASCAR on an oval circuit. The goal is to go and to go fast. If you’re using your brakes on an oval circuit, you’re either coming into the pit lane or avoiding an accident. Like those are the only two reasons, because the rest of the time you should be pedal to the metal or close, because how in the you know how are you gonna like you just you’re you’re just going you’re just going, and so when you look at the braking system on a NASCAR vehicle, right? I think they have 1000 horsepower, something like that. These are monster engines, super powerful machines with these teeny little itty bitty brakes, because the brakes would just slow them down. Well, what happens whenever they go to a street circuit, or what happens when you go to a Formula One style or you know indie style street circuit? You need much bigger brakes.
The brakes on a Formula One car, even though it’s much lighter and less powerful, are significantly more powerful the brakes are than those on a NASCAR vehicle set up for an oval track. Why? Because you’re using brakes a lot. You have to slow down to speed up. In fact, the fastest way around the track is to slow down the most at the right points. You actually can exit a corner faster by slowing down better. Otherwise, you just end up in the wall. And so, both of these, I want to show you. Systems and processes are like breaks for your organization. And when the time comes that you need them, you need them. And so, when you move to a street circuit, something that has something other than just left turns, you will very quickly recognize the need for them. And if you don’t, it’s pretty catastrophic.
Scott Ritzheimer
Which is why people who’ve been through that experience are so right to say you have to have systems and processes. But if you add all that breaking to your team that’s just trying to go in a straight line as fast as they can. The only thing it’s going to do is slow you down, and then throw you into whitewater prematurely. What’s going on here is that folks who’ve either been through Whitewater and want to help others, or folks who see that Whitewater exists-right? You’ve read the Predictable Success book. You know that Whitewater’s out there. We have the temptation to try and skip Whitewater. We think, well, if I can add those systems and processes now, then I’ll never feel the pain of whitewater, and if you’ve got anything from this episode, I hope you recognize that it’s that doesn’t work. It actually makes whitewater twice as long, twice as expensive, and twice as hard, because you hit whitewater with less velocity. And I know I’m throwing a bunch of metaphors at you, but I really want to land the point, and I actually had someone who who had a bunch of whitewater experience who said to me, the safest way to hit whitewater rapids is to hit them as fast as you can. When you have a big rapid, you want to get as much momentum going into it as you possibly can, so that you have the greatest opportunity to steer and navigate through it.
That’s what’s going on for organizations. When organizations are overprocessed, they hit whitewater without the requisite momentum. Why is that a problem? Well, it’s a really big problem because, like we’ve mentioned earlier, you have to, if you’re going to get through whitewater that you created on your own by having too much system and process, you have to simultaneously reduce system and process, increase operator, usually increase some vision as well to get through it, and add systems and processes all at the same time. Like that screws with your mind, and it’s really really hard to do. What happens is more often than not, and I’ve helped folks through this before I recognize what was going on. I’ve helped folks do this exact thing. I’ve helped folks to add more system and process that they need than they needed, thinking it would help them. And here’s what happens every single time, and and it’s. It’s unfortunate because most of the time folks can’t even see that they’ve done this until the end. Here’s how you know, and unfortunately it’s at the very end. But here’s how you know if you were overprocessed when you started dealing with whitewater, it’s that when you do the things that you need to to get out of whitewater, and again they’re very specific.
Read the Predictable Success book. We’re not really going to talk about what those are too much in this series, but there’s a ton of great information on it. This this one right here looks like this: Predictable Success by Les McEwen. When you do all of those things, you can check all the boxes. You can have a great org chart, perfect job descriptions, crystal clear strategy on how you’re going to get to predictable success, and you’ll add all of that system and structure, and it will amount to absolutely nothing. Your organization won’t grow any faster on the other side of it. It’s crazy. When and and that’s not because those things don’t work. Because if I take an organization that’s overoperated, and even some that are overvisioned, and I put them through the that same course, that same set of practices, and and same set of processes, and same set of structures. Most of them will something like triple their bottom line. Some of them will double their revenue in the first year after doing that. The transformation is unbelievable when you do the right things at the right time, but if you try and do all of those things early because you arbitrarily push yourself into whitewater by putting too much system and process on your operators, it’s not going to work.
Scott Ritzheimer
So the second big reason why folks end up in whitewater prematurely, and I think it’s going to be the first big reason very soon, is that they they take all of the talk in our world now about systems and processes, systems and processes, systems and processes, and they take those big heavy braking systems and they stick them on their little mountain bike and they’re pedaling harder than ever and not getting anywhere. And so, if you’re sitting there thinking, here’s probably the best way that you can diagnose this ahead of time. If you’re sitting there thinking, “Hey, we’ve really invested in systems and processes, and honestly, I think they’re good systems and processes, but I can’t tell a difference. We’re not any more profitable. We’re not any. We’re not. Our revenue is not growing like crazy. We’re still not able to scale. If you added all of those, there’s a chance that you added the wrong ones. But there’s also a good chance that you added the right ones at the wrong time. You added them too soon. Here’s another thing, and we talked about this in the previous episode, but it applies here as well.
If you end up overprocessed and in whitewater, one of the ways to tell that you did it too soon is to look at how many people you have on your team, because while it’s not perfect, the head count should give us a decent way of approximating complexity, and if you’re sitting there and you’ve got great systems and processes, and there’s 15 or 20 of you on the team, and that’s bigger than it’s ever been before, but you are drowning in whitewater. There’s you’re dropping the ball over the stuff. Stuff’s going wrong. Your systems and processes aren’t working. You probably have too much system and process. You’ve probably tried to overcompensate for a lack of competent process. I’m sorry, operators. A lack of competent or quality operators. You’ve tried to compensate for that by adding a bunch of system and process to something. You’ve overcooked it, and you still don’t have enough operator to grow. Well, if that’s you, what do you do? And just like if you’re overvisioned, what you have to do is you actually have to go back before you go forward. It’s kind of like you were driving down the road next to a river, and there was a bunch of rapids over here, and they’re not the ones that you want to be in, but they look kind of fun. And instead of driving down the road at 60 miles an hour, you all jumped out and got into the rapids, and you’re just bouncing around for no reason at all. Let’s get back on the road.
You’re going to move a lot faster on the road. How do we do that? We actually do that by not necessarily just lessening system and process, because that’s kind of an arbitrary thing. We just like let’s just abolish processes. Instead, what I want you to do is not think so much about lessening system and process, but about increasing the operatorness of your organization, and that’s going to happen in two different ways. First, you’re going to have to make sure you have good operators on the team, or go get some. Then, what you want to do is take your decision making, your systems, your processes, your products, everything that you do, and I want you to run it through this filter. What can we do to this to help our operators succeed even more? How can we simplify what we’re doing so that our operators can? Succeed even more, and when you use quality operators as the lens, as the litmus test for whether you need a system or not, whether you need a process or not, whether you need another idea or not, when you really focus in on just equipping those really great operators to go get stuff done, not to be super strategic, not to be the most innovative, but to go and sell and deliver and sell and deliver and sell and deliver and sell and deliver until you have a gigantic organization that’s wonderful in every way. I’m being a little facetious, but you get the point. Go find the operators and then refine all of what you do, from how you make decisions to what checklists you have.
Scott Ritzheimer
Refine all of that using the lens. How can we make this serve our operators better? And then listen. They will tell you what sucks, and they’re probably right. At least, if they’re a quality operator and they’re complaining about something, well, sometimes quality operators complain, so we have to be a little careful with this. But even so, if they’re complaining about something and they’re saying, “Hey, that’s not necessary. That’s too much. Why are we doing that? It’s too complicated, then at least listen. At least listen, because they very well may be onto something, and so that’s what happens when we’re overprocessed. We end up in whitewater prematurely. We set ourselves on a path for doing all the right things and getting none of the right results, and that’s miserable. You don’t want to be there. Instead, what we can do is get out of whitewater, get back on the highway, and get a lot bigger, a lot more successful, and have a ton of fun doing it. This I’m realizing that this is coming across a little negative, but it really shouldn’t.
I actually get really, really excited when I come across an organization that is prematurely in whitewater because I can recognize pretty quickly they don’t actually need to go through whitewater. They don’t need to do the the open heart surgery that is the the stuff of getting through whitewater to predictable success. They don’t have to do that right now. I can look at an organization and recognize, hey, they’ve got another five or 10 years of fun ahead of them. Let’s go back there and crush it. And again, you’ll see organizations that can get four times as large without tipping back into whitewater. Legitimately, literally seen that, and that could be the same for you. So, if you’re overprocessed, it’s important to recognize that you probably are a big part of putting you there, you might like process a little bit more than you should, and if that’s the case, then we just need to tap the brakes on the brakes. We need to we need to chill out on the system and structure, and we just need to find some good people, and we need to help manage them well, and that’s what’s going to help those of you who are overprocessed and end up ended up in whitewater because of it to get back to fun and thoroughly enjoy both being in fun and growing in fun. It can be very cool.
With that, that sets us up for the third most likely reason or the third wrong way to get into whitewater, and this is the one that nonprofits struggle with almost all the time. So, if you’re a nonprofit leader in particular, or if you’re a very people-oriented leader, even if you’re in the for-profit world, then you are not going to want to miss the next episode in this series because this is what happens to people leaders that causes them to accidentally get into whitewater way too soon. I’ll show you what it is, why it happens, and what you can do about it. All that in the next episode. I’ll see you there.
Scott Ritzheimer
Hey everyone, Scott Ritzheimer here. Thank you so much for listening to the Start Scale and Succeed podcast. I hope this episode gave you exactly what you need for the level you’re in right now. If you want to discover what level you’re in, take our 10-question Founders Evolution Quiz for free at foundersquiz.com. That’s foundersquiz.com. It’ll pinpoint exactly where you are and give you tailored tips to move forward and reach that next level in your journey as a founder. If you got something out of today’s episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, or review. It helps us reach more founders like you, and let’s be honest, it means a ton to me, my team, and all our incredible guests. So keep starting, scaling, and succeeding, and I’ll see you in the next episode.
Contact Scott Ritzheimer
Scott Ritzheimer is the founder of Scale Architects and a leading expert on organizational life cycle and founder leadership. He has helped launch nearly twenty thousand businesses and nonprofits and, before turning thirty-five, built and sold his own multimillion-dollar company after a decade of double-digit growth. Today he helps founders and CEOs who have people to lead but are still buried in the daily grind, giving them a clear next step instead of a theory. He is host of the Start Scale Succeed podcast and author of The Founder’s Game.
Want to learn more about Scott Ritzheimer’s work at Scale Architects? Check out his website at https://www.scalearchitects.com/
Connect with Scott through his LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottritzheimer/
Pre-order a copy of Scott Ritzheimer’s book “The Founder’s Game” at https://www.scottritzheimer.com/book/pre-order