In this powerful episode, Chip Scholz, Founder and Owner of Scholz and Associates Inc., shares how stage 5 CEOs must lead transformation or risk managing decline. If you feel worn out, stuck maintaining success, or tempted to coast in your current comfort zone, you won’t want to miss it.
You will discover:
– What small intentional decisions create the clarity and energy needed for the next level
– Why staying in neutral as CEO inevitably leads to stagnation or demise
– How to shift from doing everything yourself to building a people-first, performance-driven culture
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the Start scale and succeed podcast. It’s the only podcast that grows with you through all seven stages of your journey. As a founder, I’m your host, Scott Ritzheimer, and one of the hardest parts about being a CEO is that your organization is not going to stay still. As our guest today, Chip Scholz will share you will either lead a transformation or find yourself managing a demise. But for those of you who are leaders in that stage five, CEO stage, there might be a third option, and Chip’s going to help us figure all this out. Who is chip? He is an executive coach, a storyteller and an author. His fourth book, small decisions, big shifts, navigating life on your terms, was released in October of last year. His next book, Every dog has its day, just came out in March, and he’s currently working on handoffs, which is due to be out in early 2027 for decades, chip has helped leaders cut through complexity, find real clarity and make the small, intentional choices that create massive change. He’s known for turning big ideas into practical moves that you can use right away, and for reminding us that life, that the life that we want, is built one small decision at a time. Here with us today. Chip, welcome to the show. Glad to have you here.
Chip Scholz
Scott, thank you very much for having me.
Scott Ritzheimer
I’ve been admiring, jealously your handiwork behind you. That’s probably another conversation for another time, but it’s beautiful. You made most or all of that. Is that right?
Chip Scholz
Probably 98% of it, yes,
Scott Ritzheimer
Wow, wow. Fantastic, fantastic. It’s woven through the book that just came out. I highly recommend it. We’re gonna talk about something a little bit different today, and I wanna dive right into this, because it’s a big topic, and we try and keep these episodes nice and short and sweet. And so let’s start with this first big idea out of the gate, and that is that you really stand by this principle that you’re either leading a transformation or managing a demise. There’s no neutral gear. Why does that happen inside of the organizations that we lead?
Chip Scholz
Well, I had heard a long time ago that you’re either growing or you’re dying, and this is kind of a way of talking about it, even even more. And I find, especially when you’re talking about that fifth stage, that there’s, there’s a big difference between leadership and management. And leadership, to me, is about people. Management is about things. You manage budgets, you manage projects, you manage all kinds of things, time and attendance and that kind of thing. But if you’re a CEO in that in that stage where you know the business is growing. Things are moving. It’s more about leading, and that goes to the point where you get to the point where you’ve got to get away from thinking in terms of what you do as a founder to who you are as a founder. You have to think about the culture.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, it’s a fascinating thing. And I think it’s something that, especially early on as a founder, there’s kind of not an option, like, it’s just constant transformation and change and growth, and it’s pretty obvious that you you have to go, but at this stage five, I think that becomes less obvious. Like, there are a lot of things that are really comfortable about this stage and this level of success, and there’s also way more that needs continuous management and being propped up and moved along and kept moving. I think, is it Ed Catmull, who talks about feeding the monster and this idea that, like, there’s just so much to manage, and what I’ve seen happen for folks at this stage, and maybe you’ve seen it too, is we just kind of get tired. We just kind of get tired of hanging on to all of this and and so what would you say to a leader who’s there? They’re in Stage Five. They’re very successful, but they’re just kind of worn out.
Chip Scholz
Get good people and start trusting good people instead of trying to do everything yourself, because you can’t do everything yourself. And I don’t care whether it’s 100 person firm or a 200 or a 500 or 1000 person firm, you can’t do it all yourself, and trying to do it all yourself is, you know, going to put you in an early grave and going to burn you out. And so, you know, it’s, it’s again, leadership is about people. It’s about and I find the best cultures, especially in in entrepreneurial companies, the best cultures are people first, or people oriented and performance driven. So you can’t forget about performance. You got to make sure that you’re you’re paying the bills, but it’s got to be around people. And if you’re, if you’re taking the time to develop your people, if you’re taking the time to to let go. One famous example of this is I work with a. Company called Haskell in Florida, and a great company, best culture I have ever been around.
Company’s been around for 60 plus years, and it was founded by a guy named Preston Haskell. And Preston was really bright. He was a Harvard and a Yale guy, and he moved south and started a business completely from scratch, and really created the whole design, build, construction industry. At about 60 years old, he decided to step back, and he actually hired a CEO. So he still stayed very active and involved in the business, and still is marginally involved. He’s in his his late 80s at this point, but he had, he had the insight, the wisdom to be able to let go and and you know, you’ve heard many examples of people that are really good at entrepreneurial really good at startups, but not so good at running a company. And you know, if you can’t make that transition, you got to find other ways of doing it.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, one of the things that’s neat about this stage is is stepping out of your role as founder and CEO. You never really step out as founder, but as CEO in particular, oftentimes in earlier stages that that feels like you’ve fallen short or you’ve not, kind of you made it, but at this stage, it’s exactly what you need to do to get to the next stage. Stepping out of the way and letting someone else take the reins is exactly what you need to do to get to stage six, that owner stage and and so how can we how can we use this idea of you’re either leading or transformation or managing a decline to help inform the timing of when it’s the right time to take that step back?
Chip Scholz
I think that’s more art than science. You know, because is it when you top 100 million in revenue, or is it when you top 50 million? Or is it, is it with them, when you have 1000 employees, you know, it’s got to feel right. It’s got to I’ll tell you, the best way to know is to to see your decision making flow. And if your decision making flow is slowing down, then it’s time because, because that means that everything’s settling on your desk. I worked with a company several years ago that had new CEO come in, and he replaced a guy that had been there for 30 years as a CEO, and he was an old Scotsman, and he ran the company with a completely controlling hand. You couldn’t spend 100 bucks, his senior staff could not spend 100 bucks without asking him first, wow, so the new guy comes in, and he didn’t know any of this and and so he he found that the people that were on a senior staff couldn’t make a decision, and the company was hamstringed at a certain revenue level and a certain growth because nobody could make a decision. And, you know, he started to work with them. Started bringing in people like me and other people to to help them with learning to make the decision. About half of them couldn’t make it and and so he had to replace half of them. About half of them did. But it was, it was that whole spreading, the decision making being more nimble. Because as you grow, you become less nimble. And you know, a lot of that, that less nimble resides in you.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, it really does. It’s an interesting point, because I think there’s, there’s kind of two primary criteria for whether you you as the founder, should stay on as CEO and and I think it has a lot less to do with skills. Most of the founders I know can learn the skills if they want to, right? But what I’ve found is really, really important, is one that they have a compelling vision for the future, right? Sometimes you can take a couple of, you know, just hard seasons, and they can really set you back, or or you start dreaming about something else, beyond work, and you start to just lose sight of that vision. So you have to have a vision, compelling vision, for the future. And then I think you have to have the energy to pursue it, right? It to use your language. You’re going to lead a transformation to get there. And sometimes we look at that and it’s like, wow, that’s just one transformation too many. Like, I can see it. I’d love to get there, but I don’t think I have the energy to do that. Have you seen that show up in your world?
Chip Scholz
Yeah. So, you know, most of my clients are family businesses and and several of them are second or third or even fourth generation. In fact, in one case, it’s fifth generation and yeah, yeah, which is really rare to get along with that. But you know what happens, especially as as the leaders of these organizations age, is they get old and scary. You know? They they lose their edge and. They lose their appetite for wanting to scale. They lose their their appetite for wanting to invest in the business. And you know, it’s, it’s, it’s sad to see that’s part of the reason I wrote handoffs is, is because I’ve watched it so many times. I’ve seen so many examples. And the funny story is that I’ve shared some snippets of the story with a couple of my owners and founders, and they all go, did you write that about us? Yeah, well, no, I just wrote it about a whole bunch of different but you know, that’s that’s also part of the thing that you have to watch out for, is, is okay, when is it time to make the handoff?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. It also brings me to another question that I was thinking really as I was, I was thinking through this kind of mindset that you present, but how does this help us choose the next person as well. Because what I’ve found is there’s a temptation to kind of get somebody who will not screw it up, but doesn’t that set us up to most of the time land on managing a decline.
Chip Scholz
I’ll go back to Preston for a second. Preston was brilliant about this. He still had a great deal to do with the business, but he he pretty much gave the next person in the CEO spot, and that person was there for 17 years. So, you know, he gave him the full trust and confidence and and that’s a big part of it, you know, it just really depends. Do you have the homespun talent to be able to do that, or do you need to go outside? And you know, if you’re going outside, then you’re going to want people that aren’t like you. You know, I there was a company I worked with a long time ago that that had the hiring system. It was called plus, and plus was people like us, and it’s like, wait a minute, do you really want people like us? I mean, you know, yeah, okay, some of the fire in the belly and things like that, but, but do you want everybody to be the same? Do you want, you know, do you want a mini me and and, no, you don’t want a mini me. You want somebody that can, that can compliment and, by the way, you know, you’re not planning on stepping back, and it depends on, on when that happens, but, but even if you are planning on stepping back, then you even want somebody that is, you know, that’s going to take it in a new direction, that’s going to take and grow the company.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, it’s so good, so good chip. There’s a question that I have for you, and then I want to make sure folks know how they can get in touch with you. But first the question, and that is, what is the biggest secret you wish wasn’t a secret at all. What’s that one thing you wish everybody watching or listening today knew?
Chip Scholz
You know, I don’t know exactly how to say it, but, but I will say that my observation is when people start believing their own bad things happen. And, and the the term is hubris and, and I’ve seen that so many times, where people thinks that they know all the answers, and they they have all the answers, and they have to have all the answers. And, and I don’t know, you know, it’s, it’s like, it’s like Adele. I mean, is it Adele put any good music out since she got happy, you know? And so and so you get, you get fat and happy, and you get complacent, and you start to believe your own you start to believe your own press. You start to believe your own PR department and and bad things happen there. And so I, I wish people would would recognize when that is is on its way, and be able to back up and and recenter. So I’ll talk about Haspel again. There’s a current CEO, guy named Jim O’Leary, and he’s, he’s an incredible leader, just an incredible leader. And he’s the third CEO, so he came after the founder and the first CEO. He still goes by every morning before he goes to the office and plays with his grandkids. Think about that. Whenever he’s in town, he stops by and plays with his grandkids. Isn’t that grounding, you know? Yeah, and he leads that way. He leads with a lot of heart. So, you know, I’ve gotten some great examples, and I love working with a company.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s fantastic, fantastic chip. I know that there’s some founders and owners and leaders listening today who’d love to hear more. Maybe get a copy of one of your books, or even find out about what it’s like to work with you. Where can they find out more?
Chip Scholz
The books are on Amazon. Amazon and the audio books are on several different platforms, Spotify, it’s not an Amazon, but on Spotify, on Barnes and noble.com Kobo and a number of other ones. You can get in touch with me through my website, at Scholzandassociates.com, all spelled out, and I’m on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram and so yeah, I’m pretty easy.
Scott Ritzheimer
Fantastic, fantastic. Well, Chip, thank you so much for being on and sharing with us today. I really, really appreciate it. It was an honor having you here. And for those of you watching and listening, you know your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Contact Chip Scholz
Today’s guest is Chip Scholz — executive coach, storyteller, and author. His fourth book, Small Decisions, Big Shifts: Navigating Life On Your Terms, was released on October 2. His next book, Every Dog Has Its Day, will be released in March 2026, and he is currently working on Handoffs, due out in early 2027. For decades, Chip has helped leaders cut through complexity, find real clarity, and make the small, intentional choices that create massive change. He’s known for turning big ideas into practical moves you can use right away—and for reminding us that the life we want is built one small decision at a time.
Want to learn more about Chip Scholz’s work at Scholz and Associates Inc? Check out his website at https://scholzandassociates.com/
Connect with Chip through his LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/chipscholz/
Check out his Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/Chippturns
Get his book Every Dog has Its Day on Amazon at https://www.amazon.com/Every-Dog-Has-Its-Day/dp/1612063993/ and on BN at https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/every-dog-has-its-day-chip-scholz/1149675072