In this investing episode, Daphne Dickopf, Founder and Owner of Change Matters Coaching LLC, shares shares tools to overcome imposter syndrome. If you struggle with feeling out of depth as a startup founder, you won’t want to miss it.
You will discover:
– What daily practices build authentic confidence
– Why imposter feelings signal growth in stage 2
– How to reframe imposter as an ally for progress
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the start, scale and succeed. Podcast, the only podcast that grows with you through all seven stages of your journey. As a founder and I’m your host, Scott Ritzheimer, and we have an unbelievably powerful episode in store for you here today, because there’s only one problem that, when I think about it. Every single one of my clients has to deal with, or at least has had to deal with, at some stage in their career. It’s not a lack of profitability, it’s not hiring. It’s not even, somewhat ironically, trying to figure out what stage they’re in and what to do about it. No, the only problem that I’ve seen affect every single one of my clients, regardless of their degree of success is the feeling of being an imposter in someone else’s world. And nowhere is this more true and more debilitating in our journey as founders than in that stage two mode, when we’re there, launching out as a startup entrepreneur and inevitably, invariably finding ourself way out of our depth, and it’s particularly problematic because it feels like you’re completely alone. It feels like I must be the only one who feels this way. I must be crazy, because everybody else has got it figured out, and that’s simply not the case. There’s not something wrong with you. It’s just a skill and a I can’t use the word. We’ll get to that in a moment. But this is something that we can solve, and here to help us solve for it, to set things straight and help us to make friends with our imposter is Daphne Dickopf, who owns a consulting, coaching and training company and is an ICF certified executive coach, facilitator and trainer. She specializes in individual, team and organizational development. Her background in international project management and her own leadership experience underpin her belief in every person’s innate ability to find the best solutions and chart their path. She holds a bachelor’s degree in international marketing from the regents business school in London, and a dual Masters in Business Administration from ESSEC business school in Paris, France, and the Mannheim business school in Germany. She’s also the author of the brand new book make friends with your imposter, which, to my knowledge, is the most comprehensive guide to overcoming the imposter cycle and setting yourself free to do your best work. Well, Daphne, welcome to the show. Very excited to have you here. First question right out of the gate. It jumped off the page at me as I was reading through your book, and has haunted me ever since, because there’s a phrase that you don’t like that I use all the time, or, let’s say, used all the time. So the phrase is imposter syndrome. What’s wrong with that phrase and what’s a better way for us to think about it?
Daphne Dickopf
Well, thanks for having me, Scott and the lovely introduction. I just don’t like the phrase because it just suggests it’s something medical. It’s a diagnosis that we cannot get rid of, and it was just coined that way, and it’s actually not something medical. That’s why I like to call it the imposter phenomenon, or the imposter feelings, or the imposter journey, or the imposter experience, because it’s something very subjective, and it’s not objectively that there’s something wrong with us. So yeah, instead of saying, you know, you have a syndrome and something is wrong with you, it’s something that many of us deal with. As you just said, most entrepreneurs at many stages of their of their cycle, probably, and so yeah, let’s not call it a syndrome when it’s not.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. So there’s a common misperception, and I think it may even you know better than me, but it may stem from some of the early research that this is something that affects women a lot more than men. But from my understanding, that’s not true. Is this something that affects all of us?
Daphne Dickopf
It does. I mean, the original research that was done by Dr Pauline rose clans was focusing on a group of women in academia. But ever since then, and I’ve coached tons of executive men who come with this, they might not call it initially imposter, but they might call it self doubts. They might say, I don’t feel so 100% sure this time, right? And so yes, it in research. Now we know it’s probably about even. There’s some groups minorities that feel a little bit more strongly than others, but you could probably, pretty much say it happens to everyone at least once in their life. I think we’re, we’re about to 80 to 89% of us have it at least once in our lives.
Scott Ritzheimer
Well, well, I know it’s certainly something that I’ve struggled with at various stages through my journey as a founder. But one of the things that struck me, especially as a coach now and being invited into other folks’ stories, is to some extent, how differently it shows up for different people. So. So you mentioned this. Some folks may not even think to call it imposter syndrome, or may not even know what imposter syndrome is or imposter phenomenon. See, I did it again. But so just in a nutshell, what are we looking for? What’s it look like when it shows up in our world, particularly for entrepreneurs and founders?
Daphne Dickopf
Yeah, I love that you’re bringing this to this. You know, it’s a spectrum, almost, right? You. There are people who just have very unrealistic, high targets and expectations of themselves, so they can never 100% deliver on those expectations. Then there’s others who just, I always want to learn more, and then they know I’m never going to be the expert, because there’s always nor more to learn. Some who think they have to go it all alone, right? Unless you can do everything all the time by yourself, you’re not good enough. And then there’s the expectation sometimes also just be superhuman, like you got to do it. You always need to handle it. You can never show a vulnerability. You can never suffer, and you can never once just not do it right. And so sometimes it’s not not being good enough. Sometimes it’s always going the extra mile somewhere. Sometimes it’s always being clever, more clever and more intelligent than others. Sometimes it’s being the expert in everything and doing it all alone. And so it shows up in different variants from people.
Scott Ritzheimer
It’s so easy, especially with that explanation, to see why it plays such a big role in our entrepreneurial journey. Because, again, if you’re a solopreneur, if you’re you’re starting something out, so much of it rides on you. It can feel like you have to be superhuman you you literally have to do everything within the context of your business. That’s not actually true, but it feels that way. And the other place that I’ve found it show up is kind of in in the early phase of each of our stages. So there’s some kind of big shift. We enter a new stage. It needs new skills. We’re working with new people, and for some reason, it just pops up again. Why is that?
Daphne Dickopf
Yeah, it’s and there’s actually, we call them mechanisms, coping mechanisms, that help the imposter survive, and us being small. And it’s things like, you know, procrastinating, like not not starting when you’re doing something new, like you gotta, as you said, you have new skills. And then that’s where it’s daunting. Whenever we get to a point where it’s not so familiar, it’s not common ground anymore, it’s not easy, but it gets a bit difficult. That’s when the imposter voices show up and drive you nuts.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, and it’s when you can least afford it, like when you need the most confidence to take that next step, it seems to be where it jumps up the most. So there were a couple of areas in the book that I found were really, really helpful for me in understanding what’s going on. Like, what does this look like, structurally? And so there were, I believe, what you called foundational blocks to break the cycle, and the first one was the trigger. What’s going on with the trigger? What are some common triggers for entrepreneurs or founders just starting out?
Daphne Dickopf
Yeah, so, so triggers are, whenever we hear it or see it, we go into, Oh, I’m not good enough, or I need to do more. I’m not the expert yet. And with many entrepreneurs, I see that they see someone else on social media or on a conference who’s presented differently and presented maybe as if they are already a big shot or have made it, and immediately the mind goes, Oh, I’m not there yet. I’m not as famous as that person. I have not that many clients lined up. I cannot do it. I will not succeed as an entrepreneur. Yeah, that’s a common one.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, it’s it’s fascinating, because I’m not a huge social media person. I’m actually a certified social media dinosaur, but I did find myself. I found it was particularly destructive in that stage for me, where I was seeing folks who were further down the road. It’s like, that’s just not even remotely helpful comparison. And I’m not prone to comparison, but I found myself doing it all the time in that stage. And so what do we do when we feel that, when we see that, when it just kind of cuts us to the core, how do we start to turn the cycle around?
Daphne Dickopf
Basically, first thing is really to become aware, right? Notice when you have those triggers, become aware. Hey, this is what’s going on. I’ve had this before. This looks similar to what I’ve seen before. And then learn to intervene. That might be an example of social media. Just don’t follow these people. Follow people who give you more positive lives. It might be with a self talk. Oh, self talk is happening again. I don’t feel worth it. Let me take a break. Do something that gives me powerful energy. Can be anything from. Music, doing jumping jacks, whatever gets you that all right, I got this, talking to a friend, you know, talking with your mentor, and then to actually change the path of your normal behavior. Of the trigger is here. That’s what I usually go to, and that’s when I go into my downward cycle of, oh, I’m not there. I have these imposter feelings to No, no, I can turn this around. I know that’s what growth is, right? It’s where growth happens. When it gets uncomfortable.
Scott Ritzheimer
How important, or maybe even just helpful, is it to bring somebody else into that cycle, to share with a friend or a mentor or a coach?
Daphne Dickopf
Yeah, immensely. So in my book, I sort of lay out the imposter strategy framework, which has four quadrants, and one of the quadrants is your support network. And that can be mentors. It can be an accountability partner. It can be just friends that you’re sharing things with. Once you talk about it. You sort of take the fear and the power out of it. It’s like, oh, and people will most definitely tell you, Oh yeah, I’ve been there. Oh yeah, I’ve seen that. And you’re like, Wow, I’m not the only one. This is weird. They understand this. I thought I was the odd one out.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, it’s it’s really cool, because I owe a significant amount of my sec and my success. And I won’t tell him this, because it would give him a big head, but I think it was episode four, somewhere in the first couple episodes, I had my coach on. His name’s Robert Mallon. And the thing that I love about Robert, and the thing that he did that really carried me through those early days was he believed in me more than I believed in me. And so even though we didn’t meet every day or something like that, when we did meet, there was this I just knew that I’d come out of it feeling more confident than I went in. And it was, it was so helpful, because he did for me what I couldn’t do for me in that stage. And I owe him a huge gratitude for that.
Daphne Dickopf
That’s amazing, and I see that often, when others believe in you and they can see it, because you cannot see it, you’re not going to believe it. But once you turn it around and say, All right, they see it. Let me just write their confidence, that wave of confidence for a while, until I can see it myself, and I can feel as confident, hugely powerful.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, it’s worth pursuing if you don’t have it, and I don’t, maybe everyone can have it. Maybe everyone can’t, I don’t know, but one of the things that I do know is there’s a lot of voices who are not building you up at this stage, right, and for all kinds of different reasons. And I would say most of them probably just because they care about you, like, starting your own enterprise has, like, just almost guaranteed to fail, right? Like, it’s just the odds are so bad that anyone who loves you rightfully should try and talk you out of it, but that can blend into looking like they don’t believe in you, or feeling like they don’t believe in you, and so having that person in your corner, who’s you, who has a bigger view of you than you do, I think, is a huge, a huge help. So that’s one of these four quadrants support, and that’s just one example of support. What are these other quadrants we can use to make friends with our imposter?
Daphne Dickopf
Yeah. So I, you know, I came up with that matrix because, as a ex management consultant, I love matrices, and I just realized, with all the research I did and all the clients work that I’ve done, there is something about the long term and short term focus of imposter phenomenon. There’s things that you have to do right now and here, because it’s actually happening and it’s impacting you. You’re feeling it now. And there’s some long term things where you just, you’ve got to be prepared. And then there’s also things that you’ve got to do internally with you, for you. And there’s things like, as we said, it’s a support network externally. So let’s, I was just going to say, we have short, short term focus internal on me. Those are first eight problems, solutions. I mean, where you’re like, You snap out of it because you do, like a breather or because you’re just fact checking, right? There’s things you do internally for yourself, and you know it’s going to work within the seconds, yeah. And there’s things internally that you do that are working long term. That’s what I call resilience. You’re just setting yourself up for example, you’re keeping a list of all your failures, of all your learnings from the failures, your journaling about how the successes that you had. You know what path you went on for them, or what kind of compliments you’ve gotten. And you just make a depository of things that can help you in times of doubt. And in the same way, in the the external version, you need the support network, short term friends, family members, accountability partner, mentors. You can call coaches that you can call you can have. And tell you what, what you’re supposed to do when you’re not feeling good. But you also got to have this long term, what I call vision. You got to have tools, goals in place, where you know, hey, that’s where I want to go. This is why I’m doing this. This is my why. These are it’s my long term learning. Of course, they’re going to be setbacks, and when you know that it’s so much easier that everything else falls in place.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Daphne, there’s a question that I ask come I guess I’m very interested to see what you would have to say. And the question is this, what would you say is the biggest secret that you wish wasn’t a secret at all? What’s that one thing you wish everybody watching or listening today knew?
Daphne Dickopf
Yeah, almost everybody feels like they’re an imposter at times, and most people think they’re the only one.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah. There is in your book, I think, something like 40 different tools that folks can use to over overcome this cycle in their life. Where can folks find the book? Where can they find more about the work that you do?
Daphne Dickopf
Yeah, Make Friends with Your Imposter. Is basically available on all common bookshops in this world. But you can also find the link to it or more information on my website, which is www Daphne. That is D, A, P, H, N, E, Dickopf, D, I, C, K, O, P, f.com, and I have the links there as well, but yes, it’s available in all known bookshops in this world.
Scott Ritzheimer
Excellent, fantastic. Well, I highly recommend it for anyone listening who’s felt the pain of and sometimes debilitating pain of the imposter cycle. And it’s a tremendous resource that you can start to implement immediately, super practical. I was really practical. I was really impressed by that, and highly recommend it. Well. Daphne, thanks for being on the show. It was really a privilege and honor having you here with us today. And for those of you, yes, for those of you watching and listening, you know your time and attention mean the world to us, I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time take care.
Contact Daphne Dickopf
Daphne Dickopf owns a consulting, coaching, and training company and is an ICF-certified executive coach, facilitator, and trainer, specializing in individual, team, and organizational development. Her background in international project management and her own leadership experience underpin her belief in every person’s innate ability to find the best solutions and chart their path. She holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in International Marketing from the Regents Business School in London, United Kingdom, and a dual Master of Business Administration from ESSEC Business School in Paris, France, and the Mannheim Business School in Germany.
Want to learn more about Daphne Dickopf’s work at Change Matters Coaching LLC? Check out her company website at https://www.change-matters.com/ and her personal website at https://www.daphnedickopf.com/ and get a copy of her book at https://www.amazon.com/Make-Friends-Your-Impostor-Superpower-ebook/dp/B0DZ6H1QPX/ref=sr_1_1