LIn this amenable episode, Michael Brenner, CEO of Right Chord Leadership, shares leadership strategies via music metaphors. If you struggle with team disillusionment or leadership transition, you won’t want to miss it.
You will discover:
– What trusting bold visions creates sustainable success
– Why blending passions builds authentic leadership in stage 4
– How to apply CHORDS model for team harmony
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the Start scale and succeed podcast, the only podcast that grows with you through all seven stages of your journey as a founder, and I’m your host, Scott Ritzheimer, and today we’re going to talk about a subtle but important truth that I think very many founders miss, and that is that leadership and entrepreneurship are not the same thing. See, there’s a lot of great entrepreneurs out there who haven’t quite yet figured out how to be great leaders. So if becoming a leader has felt hard, please know you’re not alone. The journey from entrepreneur to leader can be one of the most disillusioning journeys we face. But it doesn’t have to be that way. I believe leaders are built and not born, and so leadership is a skill that any one of us can learn, if we choose to, and so long as we have someone to help show us the way. And that’s exactly why Dr. Michael Brenner is here with us today. Mike’s a leadership coach, keynote speaker and author of strike the right chord with a background that blends corporate leadership and professional musicianship. He helps founders, executives and leadership teams build high performing cultures grounded in trust, accountability and creativity. Mike’s clients range from early stage entrepreneurs to global enterprise leaders, and whether it’s coaching one on one or speaking from the stage, his mission is simple, to help leaders show up fully, lead more effectively, and create a rhythm of success that both that’s both strategic and sustainable. And he’s also, like we mentioned before, the author of strike the right chord, the emerging leader’s guide to exceptional performance. We’re going to walk through this really cool model here today. So Michael, welcome to the show. Scott, so excited to have you here. A question out of the gate is, in your opinion, your experience, why is it that so many entrepreneurs and other new leaders struggle to really develop these leadership skills?
Michael Brenner
Well, I think, as we talked about in our pre, pre interview here, Scott, I think it’s because the skills required to be an effective entrepreneur are not identical to the skills required to be an effective leader. And as you mentioned, you know, you know some great entrepreneurs. I know some great entrepreneurs, and that’s a body of skills and competencies that are associated with, you know, starting and building and cultivating and nurturing a business, and that those are very important skills, the skills of leadership, while not wholly different, are a little different because now you’re talking about building a team, cultivating a team of disparate, different personalities and temperaments and and communicating with your team members in an effective way and honoring the differences that may appear on your team. So I think about it like two sides of the same coin. They’re they’re related, but they are, they are distinct. And so we often find entrepreneurs who are really good at the starting the business, growing the business, you know, getting the seed money and and have that bold vision, can sometimes struggle leading a team because they are they are not identical skills.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. And so one of the things that I think makes this hard for entrepreneurs to recognize is that many times they are talked about as leaders, right? And throughout their history, may have had leadership roles going all the way back to sports and school, and so there’s this sense of like, well, no, I am the leader. I am the entrepreneur. So how is that different from the leadership that you’re talking about now?
Michael Brenner
Yeah, so you can sort of be thought of as the leader because you’re the CEO or, you know, head of your company, and I suppose you are a leader in that respect. But the kind of leader that I’m talking about is not necessarily a position, it’s it’s a way of being, it’s a it’s a mindset. It’s a way of showing up every day with your team. I know people who do not have positions of formal authority, who I would identify as leaders, and I know people who are in positions of formal authority who are thought of every day as leaders that I don’t necessarily consider leaders. In other words, leadership is more than just, you know, a title, and I’ve always believed that. And so I think one of the things that I talk about in terms of what it takes to be an effective leader, in my eyes, comes down to what I call the chords model you mentioned in the introduction. I also happen to be a professional musician, and a few years ago, I was really thinking about the similarities between what is required to be an effective performer or a successful musician, and what’s required. To be an effective or successful leader, and I realized there’s a lot of lot of interdependencies, or a lot of commonalities among those those two worlds. And so I came up with the chords model based on my own experience and the research that I’ve done over the years, which I think is a good place for entrepreneurs who also want to be effective leaders to start, and I can share what the courts model is, if, if.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah. Let’s dive into that. And I really appreciate it. And you walk through this in great detail in the book, I’d highly recommend it for anyone who’s listening that this strikes a chord with them. Pun intended, but yeah, let’s start at the beginning of this. So it’s a it’s an acrostic, just going back to the English class here, and not sure if I got that right. But let’s start. So C, what’s the C stand for? And why is it important for a leader?
Michael Brenner
Yeah, so each letter in the word chords, think of it as a note, right? So you’re going to hear a lot of musical language baked into the branding and the concepts and the principles of the work that I do, Scott, but so the six notes of the chords model, if you will, are C for communication, H for harmony, O for ownership. So that’s not owning the company. That is the sense of accountability, owning the outcomes of your behaviors and your decisions, right? That kind of ownership. R is for respect, D for direction and S for support. And in my experience, leaders or teams or organizations that are playing all six notes are typically experiencing a high level of success. Yeah, those that are playing maybe say five of the six notes, you know, not awful, but maybe an opportunity to strengthen one of the notes. In my experience, when you start playing four of the six notes or fewer, you start to experience some dysfunction in the team, in the organization, that, if left to, if that continues, you’ll almost certainly start to, you know, experience some, some, some, some negative results from that. You’re going to want to get your hands around that sooner rather than later. Yeah,
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Do Before we dive into each one, just briefly to introduce the model for folks. Is there? Do they happen in a certain order? Are some harder than others? What have you found in the actual implementation of the model,
Michael Brenner
Yeah. So they don’t necessarily happen in order. They’re happening simultaneously, just like the notes of the chord. Hence, the chords model, right? So a chord is a series of notes played at the same time. So one of the things that makes the six notes, or the six competencies of the chords model tricky, is that as a leader, as a entrepreneur, leader. In this context, you’re playing all six at the same time. Ideally, you’re communicating at the same time you’re trying to build harmony among a team. At the same time you’re trying to cultivate a sense of ownership among your team members. At the same time you’re trying to show, exhibit and display respect with people that you don’t necessarily agree with. At the same time you’re trying to forge a bold vision, that’s the direction piece, at the same time that you’re trying to provide constructive feedback and coaching for people. So you’re playing all six of these notes, and that can be, you know, that can be challenging as far as the most challenging note that differs with every leader and with every organization. And I’ve often asked that of my clients, I say, Hey, I’m just curious which of the six notes in the chords model is the trickiest one. And often it’s the communication piece, which I find ironic, given that we all have these incredible devices that are supposed to facilitate communication in 2025 but often that seems to be, continue to be sticking point for a lot of us. Sometimes it’s ownership. It’s very easy to point fingers and place blame when things go astray. How do you cultivate a culture of ownership? So the short answer is, it really depends on the on the culture that we’re talking.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting to me that you you highlighted communication there, because as I was reading through the book, there was that sense of like, we know this, but we don’t do it. And so how can we bridge that gap? What does good communication look like for a leader, and how do we bridge the gap from where we are to where we need to be?
Michael Brenner
Yeah, it’s a great question. I mean, I go back to the to the fundamentals, you know, what we would call the blocking and tackling, if you will, of good communication. Not to mix metaphors here, but yeah, I do an exercise in my workshops on communication where I play a piece of music and I ask the participants if they were to come up with a title for that piece of music, what would it be? And it’s a nice piece of, sort of neoclassical. There’s no words to it’s just a just a piano playing. It’s a nice piece of music. And I get all kinds of titles, like walking through snow in winter, and, you know, Ray. Bow rainbows. And you know, you can imagine all the titles. And I go, those are very, very creative titles, but talk to me about what was required to come up with that title, what what level of listening was required. And the answers are, well, I had a I had to listen very intently, right? I had to sort of block out any distractions, any chatter in my mind, and really focus on the emotions and what the music was expressing in order for me to come up with a title. And I’m like, Yeah, well, how often do we reach that level of acute listening during the course of the day? And obviously the answer is to that is hardly ever. So I go, let’s Okay. So let’s practice experiencing that level of listening. Now, not every conversation we have during the course of the day might require that level of listening, but that’s that’s sort of a muscle that can atrophy if we don’t use it. So let’s just practice, in five minutes, having a conversation in which we’re focused. We’re really paying attention to the other person. We’re not forming a response while they’re talking. Maybe we’re asking some good questions to elicit more information. And it’s such a simple exercise, but it’s really, it’s really profoundly moving, I guess, for lack of a better word, because I go, how did that feel to be listened to by someone, you know, that that intently, and they go like, wow, that was so cool, like they were focused on me and asking good questions and really paying attention. So, you know, to answer your question, we could try to reach that level of focused listening more often every moment of every day. But at least if someone is sharing something with us that’s obviously important to them, try to block out the distractions tied up. Try to block out when their lips stop moving. Here’s what I’m going to jump in and say this just just listen, you know, and and absorb and process and empathize, you know, try to put yourself in the shoes of the person that’s talking to you, yeah? And then when you feel like you have the full picture of what’s being shared then and only then, say, Well, I have some thoughts. Can I share them with you? Yeah, simple thing to do. But we, hardly ever do that. You know, we’re always trying to, you know, running off to our next meeting or running off to our next obligation, and just, you know, just showering the other person with with our opinion or our perspective or our point of view, and rarely stepping back and adopting a pose of openness and receptivity to what they’re saying. And I think if we did that more often, it would make a huge difference in the workplace. So one thing we can do.
Scott Ritzheimer
So true, the next one here is harmony, which I thought beyond the fact that you know, the obvious musical metaphors, very, very interesting word. And so my question for you is, how does harmony from a leadership concept differ from other concepts like consensus or buy in? What does harmony look like for you?
Michael Brenner
So the way that I sort of frame up the notion of harmony, Scott in the book and in the chords model, and again, I use a musical analogy, which I think might be helpful here to your listeners. If you think about different types of instruments you have, like an electric guitar. And I actually do a piece of this in my program, so I’ll play an electric guitar, you know, just like shredding electric guitar. And that’s represents the personality of someone who is a little, you know, dominant, a little, you know, very confident, maybe a little rough around the edges. We know people like that. They’re not bad people. They just have a very big personality, right? Sort of represented by this electric guitar. And then we have the next instrument. You might have people on your team who’s a trumpet and I play a piece of trumpet music. It’s very joyful and very buoyant and very it’s like, and I’m like, do you know people like that on your team who are just like, hey, come in on a Monday morning, hey, let me tell you all about my weekend. You’re like, whoa. Slow down, man, right? I haven’t even had my coffee yet. We know people like that. And then there’s, like, the saxophone, and I play a piece of, like, very warm and, like, just lush saxophone, jazz saxophone, like, you know, people like that, right? They’re just the people you go to when you just need a shoulder to cry on, right? They’re just good listeners, and they’re empathic and and, you know, the saxophones in your life. And then the fourth example is like a cello and I play a piece of a Cello Sonata. I think it’s a Bach Cello Sonata, and it’s very sort of rhythmically consistent, and every note is in the right place. I’m like, you know, people like that, you know, they’re just very meticulous. And logical and rational, right? So again, I’m using the musical analogy to shine a light on the different personalities that exist in the workplace. And then we talk about, all right, how do you get the electric guitars playing nicely with the trumpets, playing nicely with the saxophones, playing nicely with the cellos? And we have a nice conversation about the preferences and the tendencies of each of those four styles and how we can best work with styles that are a little different from us, or maybe vastly different from us. And you know, there’s a lot there to talk about, more than we have time for on this podcast, but yeah, there’s plenty of literature and plenty of research on on how to work best with people who may have, you know, a different perspective than us, or different work style than us. And really, what it comes down to is just honoring the strengths and the gifts of each style and being showing grace and patience with, you know, the the characteristics of a style that might not align with ours, and instead of getting frustrated with people, recognize that they’re just different. So let’s recognize that difference, and let’s talk about how we can work together?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, I love that, because there’s, there’s a couple of mistakes that folks make. Founders in particular, they look for other people can match their melody right as they’re looking for other people who are like them that are singing the same song in the same way. And you lose so much color in that. And then the other side of this is just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s good, you know, and you can have different that’s wrong and that’s not in harmony and not in sync with the team. And so, excellent metaphor. I really I fell in love with it as you shared it, and then again, as you shared it here on the episode. So for the sake of time, we like to keep this short for our folks, I’m gonna give you the author’s license to pick which one of the remaining four, and then again, we’ll make sure folks know how they can get a copy of the book and go through each of these in detail. But of the remainder, which do you think is the one that most entrepreneurs miss?
Michael Brenner
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that probably respect can be an issue, especially with an entrepreneur with, let’s face it, you know, a big ego. Maybe, you know, not an unwarranted one, because entrepreneurs tend to be very smart and very savvy. Sometimes they have big ego. So, you know, sometimes that can, that can be tricky direction. Maybe not so much an issue with entrepreneurs, because they typically have a bold vision for what they want to accomplish. I think maybe, I think maybe ownership, and not so much that they don’t exhibit ownership themselves, but it’s kind of cultivating ownership among a team. And for me, just for the sake of time, Scott, I think that really comes down to this notion of psychological safety. One of the things that I think entrepreneurs can do to cultivate a sense of ownership in a in a team is to create a sense of psychological safety, which is a space where people feel comfortable speaking up, speaking out, telling the truth, being themselves, maybe even pushing back a little bit on the entrepreneur, not in a disrespectful way, but offering a different point of view or different perspective, I think in a culture of psychological safety, people feel free and confident to to do the things that I think are really important to a burgeoning business, which is like point out things that you know maybe going off the rails, or things we need to be careful about when, When there isn’t that sense of psychological safety, people tend to just right. Just buckle down. Don’t see no evil, speak no evil. See no evil. And because there’s a sense of fear in terms of of expressing those things. And I think that can be very deleterious to to an entrepreneur. And we want to make sure that we create a space where, hey, even if it’s bad news, I want to hear it. I’m not going to hold it against you. I’m not going to humiliate you. That’s really important, but we’re going to talk through it. And I think that’s the one takeaway from ownership that I would share today.
Scott Ritzheimer
It’s so good. It’s so good. I love the language you use right at the top of that answer, which was cultivating an environment of ownership. I think that’s because a lot of us will hear that and think it’s licensed to demand ownership. But if you look at if you look at it, it’s it has. Be discretionary, right? Like it’s impossible to demand ownership. You can only receive it and, and so, yeah, I love that point on cultivating the environment.
Michael Brenner
Yeah, I, you know, I there are, there are folks out there, maybe, who demand ownership. And, you know, we could speak to iconic leaders over the years who have had sort of that, that temperament, and there are people out there that say, yeah, they were very effective in doing that. So okay, that may be the case, but that’s that’s not what that’s not how I define a great leader, you know? And that’s why I very purposely use the word cultivate your like, like you’re nourishing, just like you would in a jazz band, right? That you’re not, you’re not demanding things of your fellow bandmates. You’re working together in harmony and collaboration, yeah, to create something that you think is going to be meaningful to your audience. So that’s, you know, as a musician, that’s, that’s kind of the paradigm where I come from, and I it’s a hallmark of the very best leaders that I’ve ever worked with.
Scott Ritzheimer
So Mike, there’s one question that I like to ask all my guests. I’m very interested to hear what you have to say, and then we’ll make sure folks know how they can get in touch with you and and go from there. But the question is this, what would you say is the biggest secret that you wish wasn’t a secret at all. What’s that one thing you wish everybody watching and listening today knew?
Michael Brenner
You know, I would say that, you know, maybe it’s a little hackneyed, but it was really true in my case, and that’s is, you know, follow your inner voice. And why I say that was really palpable for me is because about 10 years ago, I had a conversation with a colleague of mine, a successful speaker coach, and I said to him, I’m really struggling to carve out a unique identity for my business. And he said, Well, you know, what do you think makes you different from all the other consultants and coaches running around out there? And I said, Well, I have this lifelong passion for music, and, and, and, you know, I played music since I was a teenager. I listen to a lot of music. I talk about music with my friends. It’s more than just, you know, just a hobby. It’s really a part of me. And he stopped me, and he said, If you could see your face right now, you would see how joyful you are talking about music. So I think you answered your own question in terms of blending your expertise in leadership and team building, and you have all the academic credentials and all that, and blend that with your love and passion and background and music and create some create a brand out of that. And I said, Well, that’s interesting, but what if people find like that kind of frivolous or or or superficial, you know, I was full of doubt. And he said, Well, there’s always going to be people out there that you know, don’t align with whatever it is you’re doing, but if you come to the marketplace with a sense of authenticity and passion and joy for whatever it is, you will find people that connect. So I took that leap of faith. And I’m like, All right, sounds weird, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna totally rebrand and come up with right chord leadership and the chords model and notes and harmony and and jazz. And I was like, I’m going all in. I’m not gonna just half, you know, half, baked, and it’s been good. I mean, it has definitely allowed me to create an identity in a crowded market. People say, Oh, you’re that saxophone guy, you’re that, you’re the you’re the music guy, right? And and it allowed me to write this book. So I would say, even if that little voice in your head says it’ll never work, people are going to find it silly. You know, what are you? Who are you kidding? Follow that little voice and don’t be dissuaded. If you have a bold vision and you just feel in your gut that it’s the right direction for you, pursue it, pursue it, and don’t give up and, and I think that is the biggest quote secret that I wish more entrepreneurs that I would share with entrepreneurs that I would share with your audience today.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, remarkable, remarkable. Mike, where can folks get a copy of the book? Where can they find more out about the work that you do in the workshops you host?
Michael Brenner
Yeah, I appreciate that opportunity. Scott So rightchordleadership.com. That’s chord with an H, like musical chord, right chord, C, H, O, R, D, leadership.com. The book is available on Amazon. It’s called strike the right chord. The Emerging Leader’s Guide to Exceptional Performance. My Email is [email protected] I would be delighted to connect with any of your listeners who are interested in what I do in the any musicians out there that want to talk music and how it relates to entrepreneurship and leadership, happy to do that. So yeah, I encourage anyone who’s interested to reach out, be happy to chat with you.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Dr. Michael Brenner, thank you so much for being on the show. Just a privilege and honor having you here today, and for those of you watching and listening, you know your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Michael Brenner
Appreciate it. Thank you.
Contact Michael Brenner
Dr. Michael Brenner is a leadership coach, keynote speaker, and author of “Strike The Right Chord”. With a background that blends corporate leadership and professional musicianship, he helps founders, executives, and leadership teams build high-performing cultures grounded in trust, accountability, and creativity. Michael’s clients range from early-stage entrepreneurs to global enterprise leaders. Whether coaching one-on-one or speaking from the stage, his mission is simple: help leaders show up fully, lead more effectively, and create a rhythm of success that’s both strategic and sustainable.
Want to learn more about Michael Brenner’s work at Right Chord Leadership? Check out his website at https://rightchordleadership.com/ and get a copy of his book Strike the Right Chord: The Emerging Leader’s Guide to Exceptional Performance on Amazon at https://www.amazon.com/Strike-Right-Chord-Exceptional-Performance-ebook/dp/B0DVDGZQTZ