In this practical episode, Debbie Plager shares strategies to align your leadership team and structure for scalable growth. If you face organizational chaos or misaligned teams, you won’t want to miss it.
You will discover:
– What the 70/100 rule means for org design
– Why pausing to assess strategy prevents growing pains
– How to align leaders using data-driven insights
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the start, scale and succeed. Podcast, the only podcast that grows with you through all seven stages of your journey as a founder and today, I am here with Debbie Plager to talk through what I think is one of the biggest challenges for Stage Four disillusioned leaders, and that is, how do you align your leaders and your strategy? Because it does not happen by default. And if any of you listening are in stage four, you know exactly what it feels like to have everyone seemingly pulling in every direction, which means no less than half of them are directly pulling against you. It’ll drive you crazy. It’s it’s all that and a bag of chips, but if that’s you, you’re going to have a ton of hope and help after this episode in all in thanks to Debbie, who is a dynamic executive coach with over 20 years of experience, empowering leaders to unlock their potential and drive meaningful organizational change. She specializes in helping executives to elevate their careers, refine strategic thinking and enhance team effectiveness through tailored coaching. Debbie’s approach blends the art of science, art and science of leadership, utilizing assessments and stakeholder feedback to set clear, actionable goals that align with her clients aspirations. Debbie’s commitment to sustainable growth ensures she equips her clients with tools and a mindset for long term success. She’s here with us today. Debbie, what would you say to a founder listening today who is managing a rapidly growing business but they have so many fires to fight that something as esoteric as organizational design is the very last thing on their mind.
Debbie Plager
Scott, first of all, I’m so glad that you have this platform together for founders that are going through their growth. So I think it’s key. And for your stage four founders, I’m here to share that you’re not alone, and it’s, I think, really common when you get to a certain trajectory, right? So you’ve gotten to scale, you now have leaders or different functions. Hopefully they’re not wearing five hats. Maybe they’re wearing two hats, or less, maybe wearing one, but usually they’re just still wearing a couple, and it’s really common. So I think one thing I just want to do is just sort of normalize, like you said, this organized chaos. And I love how you described this sense of everybody’s rowing, but the problem is they’re rowing in different directions. And so how and where might org design, how does strategy and leadership, how does it come together? So you asked me a really big question, so I’m going to try to unpack it in some very practical, tactical terms. So first of all, I think it is about with intention, bringing your leadership together. And as you shared in my intro, I’m very much data driven, so actually hearing from the leadership team, you can look at your business results. You can get interviewed. I often get interview data just from everybody, and I don’t say who it’s from, but I said, Here’s your data as a team, yeah. And I asked some questions about what’s working, what’s getting in the way. How are you on making decisions? How are you clear on prioritizing? If you were to say what the top three or the top two priorities are, what are they? And more often than not. I put the data in front of the team, and the team looks and goes, Oh, we’re not as aligned because we make assumptions. The CEO thinks that everybody’s aligned. They think they have the right people around the table, and you usually do, but it requires intentional communication around decision making, around priorities and checking in on listings. So that’s one of the things I’ll share. Is backdrop in terms of org design, often what happens is this, the company grows in organic ways, and it works to a certain point until it doesn’t right, then you get that friction of you have support functions that didn’t exist, that now exist because now you’re big enough and you need them, that you have the main function. So when I work with tech companies, right, engineering is the main function. But how does quality get in there? How does testing get in there? When I’m working with financial services organizations, or I’m working with really sales organizations, and sales is front and center, but customer service, or client service, might be trying to figure out, how do we actually come in, right? And so it’s natural that things are going to go and then you’re what’s going to happen is your strategy is not going to match your structure. And that’s at the time when you really need to pause and you need to get data and you need to look at and that’s whether you’re working with someone like me, or you’re sitting down as a whole and saying, Where are we not set up to scale? Where not only with today’s. These problems, but the next 1224, 36, months, when you’re in a startup, you’re you’re moving so fast, you don’t often pause. And so one of the things I would highly recommend is when you start to feel those friction points, don’t wait and assume it’s going to go away, right? It’s going to get worse. It’s going to get louder, and the more time you let it go without having the right conversations with your leadership team, I think the more frustration you’re going to feel, and the more you’re going to see those you know, those boats going in different directions. Yeah. So oftentimes I will when I’m working with organizations that are sort of, you know, equivalent to the stage four that you’re calling. It’s saying, Okay, let’s take a look at your strategy. Let’s take a look at your leaders, and what’s their understanding of the strategy. And then let’s also take a look at the leadership team behaviors. So how good are they at having constructive conflict? How good are they at raising their hands and saying, I need help. How good are they at sharing information that they might have from customers or from partners with their colleagues internally? And so I think there’s this sweet spot of your strategy is probably the right strategy, but you’ve outgrown your structure, and so it’s a good time to pause. And if you’re working with anyone, make sure that they’re looking at the whole system. They’re not just saying, Okay, we’re structured. Do we just, you know, put another team here, do another function there? How does workflow right? What capabilities do we need? Yes. How are we rewarding behavior? Because oftentimes we reward the old behavior and we expect the new behavior to happen. Well,
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, especially culturally, right in the little things that we do? Yeah, for sure, there’s this interesting challenge that I’ve run into with folks, particularly the kind of visionary founder types, and that is, like part of what you described, of, you know, fires and challenges and everything like that’s they’ve never not known that, right? So one of the things that we learn, it’s a vital skill early on, in my opinion, at least, is to kind of what’s a nice way of putting this, to reframe every problem as an opportunity? Yeah. And so one of the challenges with that, though, is it doesn’t necessarily allow us to dig into some of these structural problems, because we can’t necessarily admit that there’s a problem there. So how do you help folks to to get past that feeling of like having to defend the way things are, and help them to recognize maybe it’s not that we screwed up, but it’s not going to serve us well moving forward.
Debbie Plager
Yeah, because you You’re exactly right, because what worked when you were a 20 person, 30 person, 50 person organization no longer works when you are on your way to being a 200 person organization. So it’s not that it’s wrong, so I think you’re right, using your language it served us well. And how do we honor the past and say, but where are we going? And can we make sure our strategy is sound, and if the leadership teams aligned on the strategy, you’re like, hey, absolutely, we have the right mission. We’re clear on what we’re here to serve. Then you say, all right, how do we need to structure in service of where we’re going? Yeah, so can we align on where we’re going? And that’s usually what happens, right? So it’s easier to get leadership teams, different egos, different perspectives, to say, look, when you’re sitting at this virtual, virtual or in person table, you are not representing your function, right? You are here in service of the organization. Can we align on where the organization is going? If we have that, okay, then, and former historian here, so I like you saying this a lot. There are many roads to Rome. There’s no perfect or design. What are the major pain points that we’re experiencing now, let’s play this movie forward. What do we anticipate the major pain points continuing to be and we have to make choices. So which are the ones we actually want to address and which are the ones that we’re just going to let we’re just going to have to suck it up and deal with it, right? So the leadership team that’s coming in and saying, I’m not representing sales, I’m representing this, this organization, and I happen to then have to think about, how do I execute this through sales? Same thing with engineering or finance or HR, ops, whatever you are. But if you can do that, then you can look at the the organization and say, what levers can we pull, and where do we want to start? So that’s one thing I think like so if you’re future oriented, and you can say, can we align on this and again, honor the past? But let’s figure out the major pain points. I think that helps getting that mindset of, I’m here as a member of the leadership team, not as my function. That’s I think we’re having someone like me. That can, you know, you can see it. You can see when they’re they’re holding on to that versus Hey, is that a me issue or a we issue? (Yes) And then what was the other piece I was going to share? Oh, okay, so org design. Here is one of my favorite principles with org design. I call it the 70/100 rule. When you have made enough decisions to get at 70% you figured out 70% of it, stand it up, as long as you are 100% aligned. So what does that mean? Okay, we’re all in the room. We’re gonna we think this is the right way to go, because the amount of time Scott that it takes for an organization designed to go from 70% to 100% you’ve already missed, you’ve missed the opportunity, you’ve missed the market, etc, so go with 70% it is good enough. And every organizational design that I’ve ever stood up, that my colleagues have ever stood up, always has pain points, because you don’t know, because on paper versus in reality, with people, with customers, with suppliers, right? So as long as you’re aligned and you’re committed to let’s test, let’s learn, let’s get data. Let’s smooth it out. We’ll get that from 71% to 100 and then, by the way, it’s a living thing. Yeah, so I’m a big believer in the 70/100 role.
Scott Ritzheimer
I love that because it strikes a really cool balance, because you’ll get some people on the team who are just more inclined to like. Let’s figure this out. Let’s get it all perfect. Let’s make the org chart of org charts, and then you have other people who like, they don’t want to take time to spell org chart, you know? And so it’s a really cool balance, because it really does take the best of both. It takes, yes, we have to make some progress with this. We have to get a big chunk of it right. But yes, really, the biggest thing is, what alignment does that create on the team? Because you’re right, like the org chart is going to change, and it’s, it’s almost one of those things that will never be what it actually is, because it’s constantly evolving moving forward and and so I love that principle, because it really does capture we do have to make progress on this. It does have to get better. Some changes have to be made, some real tough conversations need to be had, but as long as we’re aligning it, we don’t have to check every box first. That’s super cool. Yes,
Debbie Plager
it lets it lets the pressure off, and then it also says, okay, in service of our strategy and where we’re going, what are the data points that we need to collect that we know we’re making the right decision right and the team is really good, usually, at deciding and identifying what those data points are, then they’re using data driven input to make these decisions. And I think that that also helps. So part of when I work with that’s why I love this work, because you’re working with a team together and aligning these decisions, and you’re also building this mindset and refining this mindset together of we and so when they get in these rooms and they’re talking about strategy and they’re talking about org design, let your function go for a bit, put the leadership team on. Okay, now what are we seeing? What do we need to tweak? Oh, so you know, customer success is like, Hey, we’re getting all this data in from customers real pain points, or maybe there’s real pain points over here from sales, or there’s real pain points from marketing, but they know that they’re bringing it in and they’re sharing it in service of the company, and the leaders team is more likely to look at it and hear it that way, versus defensive.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, you you made a comment earlier in the conversation that many times you have the right leaders in the room, but it usually doesn’t feel like that, and sometimes you don’t have the right leaders in the room. So how do you help folks really flesh that out of is this just a miscommunication thing, or is it a misalignment thing, where we really don’t have the right leader in the right seat?
Debbie Plager
Yeah, I think. Okay, so it’s a good question, and I tend to be more optimistic. I will share because I am a believer Scott that people don’t wake up in the morning trying to be a jerk and trying to make life difficult for their colleagues. So going in with that principle, I think it’s like we’re doing the best we can, and we often have misinformation or not complete information. So when I do this work with leadership teams, first of all, I really it’s much more successful if we have team involvement, and not just the CEO or the CEO and whoever’s, like the head of people in this like small organization or CEO, right? So if you have more people in and then I often ask them, let’s can you create during this process, expectations of how you are going to work together, and accountability for how you’re going to work together? And I often will that’s where, like, sort of the leadership alignment, coaching, end of what I do comes in. So they’re doing this work together. And I will often check in on not just how you know, did they make the milestones, do they make the decisions? Where are they but how are they doing? And what happens, more often than not, is that the CEO will start to see very clearly who’s playing and who’s not. Yes, and they will know whether it is a will issue or a skill issue or something. Else is going on. So sometimes, as I said, if you’re scaling an organization, someone who was great leading a team cannot be that senior leader, and that’s okay. They still have value to add to the organization. But you may say, given where we need to go as we’re growing to be this 200 person organization, it’s not the right place. You’re just not there yet. And so I think so I have seen that happen, but I think if you can get alignment with the team on here’s our expectations of how we’re working together, how we’re making decisions, how we’re disseminating information, what is powerful is when the team holds each other accountable, and not just the CEO. Yes, so more often than not, when I see that happening, then more often than not, people will either self select out, or it’s, again, easier for the CEO to say it’s just not the right fit, and again, not that they need to exit the organization, but they’re just maybe not the right fit for the leadership team, for where the company is and its size and where it needs to go.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yes, so true. So true. I could talk about this for a really long time, but for our busy founders, I want to want to ask you one more question before we make sure we point folks in your direction. So Debbie, the question is this, what would you say is the biggest secret that you wish wasn’t a secret at all. What’s that? One thing you wish everybody watching or listening today knew?
Debbie Plager
This takes intention. It takes attention and it takes intention. And please consider this the slowing down to speed up. Don’t consider this something you know, org, design, leadership alignment, working with strategy, your leadership team in it is not this thing over on the side. This is, in fact, your job. And so I wish that CEOs would say my job is making sure I have a functioning team. And am I doing enough to really focus on this team? And how am I making sure that they can build that mindset if you create the container for the right conversations, like, that’s my thing, with intention, and then paying attention to how people are responding. It’s, it’s, I think it’s seen as this ephemeral thing. And I wish people would say, Look, this is, this is part of the work. It’s very practical, and you can break it down and not have it be the scary thing.
Scott Ritzheimer
It’s so true. So true. Debbie, there’s some folks listening. It’s exactly where they’re at. They need help. They want to design a more scalable organization. They want to know how you can help them do it. Where can they reach out to you and find out more about the work that you do?
Debbie Plager
Well, I would say, first of all, I’m very active on LinkedIn, so if you want to get a sense of who I am and we’re there, you can absolutely find me, Debbie Plager. The other places, obviously my I have a website, theplagergroup.com, you can send an email to Debbie at the Plager group or support at the Plager group. Both will find its way to me and happy to help leaders, especially founders. It’s a pivotal time, I think, for a lot of small businesses, and if I can provide support. And by the way, if I’m not the right fit, I know other people, so sometimes it’s, where are you? What’s your industry? Et cetera, but those are the best ways to find me.
Scott Ritzheimer
Brilliant. Debbie, thanks so much for being on the show today. It really was a privilege and honor having you here today. Really loved this conversation. I say this every once in a while, but there are conversations where you just have to go back and listen again, because you only caught about half of what Debbie said. So do it? Check it out. It’s worth a re listen. You’ll pick up on a whole bunch that you might have missed the first time through, and you’ll be better off for it. And for you, those of you who are watching and listening today, you do know your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation, as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Contact Debbie Plager
Debbie Plager is a dynamic executive coach with over 20 years of experience empowering leaders to unlock their potential and drive meaningful organizational change. She specializes in helping executives elevate their careers, refine strategic thinking, and enhance team effectiveness through tailored coaching. Debbie’s approach blends the art and science of leadership, utilizing assessments and stakeholder feedback to set clear, actionable goals that align with her client’s aspirations. Debbie’s commitment to sustainable growth ensures she equips her clients with tools and a mindset for long-term success.
Want to learn more about Debbie Plager’s work at The Plager Group? Check out her website at https://theplagergroup.com/